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| O2 sensor; ECU malfunction Complains | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 17 2006, 10:36 AM (56,844 Views) | |
| BUDI | Feb 17 2006, 10:36 AM Post #1 |
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Indonesia Sifu
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Bro ocmax, Just to share that I found that our ECU was out of their std spec to detect any problem on the O2 sensor. The engine check light is not turned on although the O2 sensor cable has been detached from the ECU. So the O2 sensor looks likes an accessory in Avanza rather than an useful part to maintain the catalytic converter life. No wonder that there was no problem in the ECU operation when the extractor was modified without the catalytic converter. This problem will be seriously affected to the car with the catalytic converter. |
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| zez | Feb 17 2006, 10:48 AM Post #2 |
I'm Scouser
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very technical language used here :P |
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| PB. | Feb 17 2006, 11:05 AM Post #3 |
SENiOR MEmBER
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So meaning to say that the ECU is not configured to be able to check on the health of the catalytic convertor to prompt it to us. As such something bad affecting the convertor would not be able to be detected? |
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| BUDI | Feb 17 2006, 11:29 AM Post #4 |
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Indonesia Sifu
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It's meant that the O2 sensor is not working properly to give a proper feedback to the ECU to maintain the proper exhaust emission (to regulate the lambda value at 1.00) for maximizing the catalytic converter efficiency. If the lambda value is not around 1.00 (especially when less than 1.00/leaner) will make the catalytic converter life will be shorter. So the AFR or O2 sensor is must for any car with the catalytic converter attached & it'd be working properly to the ECU. It's easy to check the O2 sensor working properly or not in AVANZA by pushing the acceleration paddle at constant 3000 rpm & maintained it for at least 4 minutes with the car fully stopped (this spec on checking O2 sensor was stated in AVANZA diagnosis & troubleshooting book) & if the O2 sensor is working properly so the rpm will not be collapse. Mine rpm will be collapse less than 3 minutes after a constant 3000 rpm with the car fully stopped. Today I am still waiting for TAM clarification, because I found that most cars uses an AFR sensor (wide band sensor) before the catalytic converter & an O2 sensor after the catalytic converter (if it's applicable) but our AVANZA is diff that using an O2 sensor before the catalytic coverter (only one sensor in AVANZA). :( |
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| KevinKM | Feb 17 2006, 02:25 PM Post #5 |
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In Car Entertainment
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thanks bro budi for your info, no wonder my rpm drop to 3.5k even i rev around 6.5k, will do a few more test on this |
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| SK | Feb 17 2006, 10:41 PM Post #6 |
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Advyn
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Noticed that Avanza only comes with one O2 sensor :( Waja also got 2. |
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| ocmax | Feb 17 2006, 10:51 PM Post #7 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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Dear members, 1st I would like to thanks bro. Budi to forward all the detail to me and guided us all the way to this stage. 2nd I would like to thanks bro. Aziz for arranging this meeting with the higher level engineers from various department and HQ Customer Service Office from Toyota. 3rd I would like to thanks our moderator support over the meeting. 4th I would like to thanks UMW Toyota to respond to customer complains. Attendance to Sungai Rasa Service Center meetings were:- Bro. SK – Moderator Bro. Thomas – Moderator Bro. aziz - Our member from TOCM/AOCM Ocmax UMW HQ CRO UMW HQ - Manager, Technical & Warranty Dept. UMW HQ - Technical Manager UMW HQ - Technical Consultant UMW HQ - Customer Support Our meeting starts at 2.10pm and the meeting ended at 3.00pm, Simulation end at 6.00pm. During the meeting we talk a lot about the O2 sensor problem and why we are so concern about the ECM failure. We were brief by all the engineers how does the O2 sensor will trigger and how to simulate to have the Engine check light to lid. Where I have many doubts and ask a lot of question. During the meeting I bring along the supporting document send by bro. Budi and the service team was surprised how I can get hold of this document. I did not post out the document until today because of many reason and agreement between me and our counter part. I also insisted that they test the O2 sensor according to the DTC manual where it has the procedure shown. I would like to thank one of the engineer that highlighted some error about the DTC manual and that make me understand more about the problem we are facing. After the meetings we proceed with the Simulation test where everybody has agreed. The below procedure was send to UMW TYT by TYT Japan. The engineer show us what type of tester they are going to use and it was the type that highlighted by bro. Budi. (IT II tester) The 1st simulation test was using the DTC manual and we proceed with the 4 min on 3000rpm and 10second voltage swing test. I have to admit they engineer got a shock when they saw the car engine started to fluctuate. Then we start to take readings. First they use the IT II tester and it doesn’t work or manage to capture the voltage swing and luckily one of the engineer manage to find a analogue multi meter to count the voltage swing. (Counted 8 times or more on the voltages fluctuation) and this test has been witness by everyone. According to the DTC manual if this 8 swing or more detected they have to proceed with step 2 - OK > (K.O the ECM needed to be change). After these test we proceed with 2 simulation test where we followed their advice to simulate the procedure to trigger the MIL light to lid. We use bro. aziz car which is a A/T. We have 2 technical engineers, me, bro. aziz & CRO in the car and we drove of and proceed with the test. 1, 2, 3 & 4 time tested fail….the engine check light didn’t lid and we turn back to SC and use a Demo car M/T to continue the testing. Tested fail again even they have change driver it didn’t trigger. They have mention that they tested day before on this Demo car and manage to trigger the MIL light and the DTC code did came out but today is their bad luck. I have requested they have to come back with answer to us and they have agreed they will file in the problem to TYT Japan and get the answer ASAP. What I wanted to say is this meeting shown that the ECM do have problem and UMW and TYT must come out a solution to fix for us and I’m very happy that UMW representative witness the whole event . [size=5]Note: If you face problem filing in the O2 sensor complain, please tell them to contact Mr. Ramesh from HQ Customer Relation Office.[/size] [size=7]The Simulate procedure by Toyota Japan [/size] Posted Image [size=7]The DTC Manual[/size] Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image TQ ;) |
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| ocmax | Feb 17 2006, 10:54 PM Post #8 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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This is the Meeting Minutes that I send to UMW to reply to us today 13th June 2006. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image TQ ;) |
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| BUDI | Feb 18 2006, 08:05 AM Post #9 |
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Indonesia Sifu
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Bro ocmax, Yes, you are right that the O2 sensor feedback can make a FC correction up to +/- 20%. I also did check the output voltage + switching mode at O2 sensor & found as follow : - At idle the avg voltage at O2 sensor was 0.7 volt & at 3000 rpm (2 minutes) was 0.8 volt (too rich AFR). Meanwhile the O2 voltage spec should be at 0.45 volt for lambda value 1.00 (AFR=14.7:1), above 0.45 volt is richer AFR (<14.7:1) & below 0.45 volt is leaner AFR (>14.7:1). The voltage measurement should be done by a DMM (high impendance voltmeter/>10 M ohms). In fact normally the O2 sensor voltage should swicth between 0.1 to 0.9 volt periodically (minimum 8 times within 10 seconds/0.8 Hz at 3000 rpm is AVANZA spec) to feedback to the ECU to maintain the lambda value at 1.00. However mine was only switch 5-6 times across 0.45 volt within 10 seconds (0.5-0.6 Hz) that why ECU was lacked of feedback to maintain the lambda value at 1.00. And I did check to other two units AVANZA A/T (K3-VE) belong to TAM SC manager & it's same. :( - It's good for you to claim to UMWT too if the same problem is occured in Malaysia by easily showing UMWT that the engine check lamp is not turned on although the O2 sensor cable has been detached from the ECU at idle (just remove the O2 sensor socket above the exhaust manifold from the ECU terminal). Don't worry that removing the O2 sensor socket will not harm to your engine & it does not stop the engine running, however the ECU MUST turn on the engine check lamp when the O2 sensor has been removed from the ECU system. |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 09:09 AM Post #10 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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Thanks for your feedback bro budi....I'll try it out tomorrow...... ;) Btw is TAM going to take any action about.....?? Regards ;) :D :lol: |
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| BUDI | Feb 18 2006, 09:52 AM Post #11 |
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Indonesia Sifu
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TAM needs to clarify it to Daihatsu Japan/ADM since the ECU & O2 sensor were the Daihatsu products. I did send the official complain to TAM this week (supported by TAM National SC manager/Mr. Darma) & still waiting for their clarification. For your info there is a big diff price between the AFR (wide band) sensor sold @ RM 520 compared to the O2 sensor sold @ RM 100 so it's not funny if TAM/ADM did the O2 sensor trial in our Avanza because of price concerned only. So if 120,000 units Avanza/Xenia sold in Indonesia in 2005, they will save over RM 50 mil on modifying Avanza catalytic converter sensor from AFR (wide band) sensor into O2 sensor only. BTW the O2 sensor switching mode can also be checked at the ECU output from the DLC3 terminal (below the ECT ECU) between terminal #1 (5 Vdc) & #4 (ground) by a pointer analog voltmeter & the voltage will swing between 0-5 volt minimum 8 times within 10 seconds at 3000 rpm (closed loop control). When ECU is not working in closed loop control (during acceleration/deceleration, medium/high loaded & high rpm above 3500 rpm at no load), the voltage between terminal #1 & #4 at DLC3 will be stable at 5 volt. |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 10:24 AM Post #12 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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Cost saving again...... <_< I think if this cost saving apply to Indonesia.....Malaysia UMW will insisted to follow too...... :angry: Btw....do you think is this possible that this is the culprit that we face during gear shift drag when driving......I mean the ECU got a wrong feedback from the O2 sensor and causes unwanted mixture of level......?? After all the GC enhancement...we really felt a lot difference. We have actually achived to reduce the transient noise interruption. TQ for you kind reply again....... :P :D :lol: |
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| KAYSOON | Feb 18 2006, 10:28 AM Post #13 |
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SINsIE
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o2 sensor, as layman don't anything about it. I hope someone can test my baby.. :D |
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| thomasllp62 | Feb 18 2006, 01:32 PM Post #14 |
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FOrUM
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The O2 sensor. Posted Image |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 05:19 PM Post #15 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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There is one more at the bottom of the exhaust.......... ;) :D :lol: |
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| thomasllp62 | Feb 18 2006, 05:33 PM Post #16 |
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FOrUM
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Yes ah! Wait i check.Only one Bro, none after the catalytic converter. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 07:02 PM Post #17 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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For your info..... ;) Catalytic Converters
The Control System: The third stage is a control system that monitors the exhaust stream, and uses this information to regulate the air/fuel mixture. There is an oxygen sensor mounted in front of the catalytic converter, meaning it is between the engine and the converter. The O2 sensor tells the engine ECU how much oxygen is in the exhaust. The ECU can increase or decrease the amount of oxygen in the exhaust by adjusting the air/fuel mixture. In this way the ECU can make sure that the engine is running as close to the stoichiometric point, and also ensure there is enough oxygen in the exhaust to allow the oxidization catalyst to burn the unburned hydrocarbons and CO. The catalytic converter does an efficient job of reducing the vehicle emissions, but there are ways it can be improved. One of the biggest drawbacks is that it only works at a fairly high temperature. When you start your car cold, the catalytic converter does next to nothing to reduce the vehicle emissions. The catalytic converter does an efficient job of reducing the vehicle emissions, but there are ways it can be improved. One of the biggest drawbacks is that it only works at a fairly high temperature. When you start your car cold, the catalytic converter does next to nothing to reduce the vehicle emissions. The simplest solution is to move the catalytic converter closer to the engine. This allows hot exhaust gases to get to the converter and it heat it up faster. This could also reduce the life of the converter by exposing it to extremely high temperatures. Most carmakers position the converter under the front seats, just far enough from the engine to keep the temperature at a level that will not damage it. The simplest solution is to move the catalytic converter closer to the engine. This allows hot exhaust gases to get to the converter and it heat it up faster. This could also reduce the life of the converter by exposing it to extremely high temperatures. Most carmakers position the converter under the front seats, just far enough from the engine to keep the temperature at a level that will not damage it. Why do converters go bad? There are two ways a converter can fail, it can become clogged or it can be poisoned. When catalytic converters fail they normally clog up with debris and block the flow of exhaust gas from getting out of the system. This will cause tremendous performance problems. In extreme cases it will prevent the vehicle from starting at all. Most of the time it just limits engine performance by choking the flow through the engine. So how do you check a catalytic converter without removing it from the car?? Sometimes an indication that a converter is clogged is that you don't go any faster when you push the gas pedal down. In addition there usually is a noticeable drop in fuel economy associated with a clogged catalytic converter. A totally clogged converter will cause the engine to die because of the increased backpressure. There is no way for anyone to actually see a clog in a converter. Usually the only way to tell if a catalytic converter is clogged is to remove it and check the change in engine performance. When a mechanic suspects a clogged converter they may remove the O2 sensor from the exhaust pipe and see if there is a change in performance. A catalytic converter relies on receiving the proper mix of exhaust gases at the proper temperature. Some engine oil additives or engine problems that cause the mixture or the temperature of the exhaust gases to change reduce the effectiveness and life of the catalytic converter. Leaded gasoline and the over-use of fuel additives can shorten the life of a catalytic converter considerably. Even some gasket sealers and cements can poison a converter. A catalytic converter can also fail because of certain other factors. A number of problems could occur to the catalytic converter as the result of an engine that is out of tune. Any time an engine is operating outside proper specifications, unnecessary wear and damage may be caused to the catalytic converter as well as the engine itself. The damage is often the result of an incorrect air/fuel mixture, incorrect timing, or misfiring spark plugs. Any of these conditions could lead to a catalytic converter failure or worse. Fouled plugs can cause unburned fuel to overheat the converter and melt the catalyst to a solid mass. If the O2 Sensor is not functioning properly it will give the ECU incorrect readings of exhaust gasses. The faulty sensor can cause an excessively rich or excessively lean condition. If the mixture is too rich, the catalyst can melt down. If the mixture is too lean, the converter is unable to convert the hydrocarbons into safe elements. Oil or antifreeze entering the exhaust system can block the air passages by creating heavy carbon soot that coats the catalyst. These heavy carbon deposits will cause two problems. First, the carbon deposits prevent the catalytic converter from reducing harmful emission in the exhaust flow. And second, the carbon deposits clog the pores in the ceramic catalyst and block exhaust flow, increasing backpressure and causing heat and exhaust to back up into the engine compartment. Your engine may actually draw burnt exhaust gasses back into the combustion chamber and dilute the efficiency of the next burn cycle. The result is a loss of power and overheated engine components. Catalytic converters can be physically damaged as well. The catalyst contained inside a catalytic converter is made from a lightweight, thin-walled, fragile material. It is protected by a dense, insulating mat. This mat holds the catalyst in place and provides moderate protection against damage. Broken support hangers can cause the converter to bounce around and the result can be breakage of the mat. Rocks or other road debris can also hit the converter, causing the internal mat to break also. Off road vehicles often suffer this type of converter failure. Once this mat starts to break up, it will collect in the smaller passages and clog the converter. The catalytic converter should last the lifetime of the vehicle it is installed in. if it does fail, it is most often a symptom of another problem. This problem must be identified and repaired or the new converter will fail in the same manner. You can keep it running well by keeping the ignition system in top shape and to prevent any unburnt fuel from entering the catalytic converter. Here is an important safety reminder: Do not park your car over tall grass or piles of dry leaves. Your cars perfectly running catalytic converter gets very hot… enough to start fires! Hope this help........ ;) :D :lol: |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 07:08 PM Post #18 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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Shit man.....really don't have another one down there......... :angry: |
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| thomasllp62 | Feb 18 2006, 07:47 PM Post #19 |
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FOrUM
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Bro Budi mention in the last sentence that we only have one O2 sensor. |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 07:54 PM Post #20 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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We needed to confirm and compare the 2 country design lor.....like they have ABS & Airbeg but we don't have.....all this was taken out because of cost saving to...you know who..... <_< So now we are on our own......what should we do... or prevent things going to happen......or Daihatsu design is in these manner...?? How about kembara....any member can check their car......??? :unsure: <_< :angry: |
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| pheonix_comet | Feb 18 2006, 07:59 PM Post #21 |
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ADVAnCED MEmBER
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o no we have been cheated....... at the daihatshu website they show 2 sensor .....Posted Image daihatshu website |
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| thomasllp62 | Feb 18 2006, 08:05 PM Post #22 |
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FOrUM
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How to install Bosch O2 sensor Review of damaged O2 sensor Toyota Technical articles Catalytic converter Electrical diagnostic tools O2 and air fuel sensors Fuel system |
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| pheonix_comet | Feb 18 2006, 08:11 PM Post #23 |
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ADVAnCED MEmBER
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i just tested mine... at the moment still ok... i maintain at 2900 and it drop a bit to 2800.... so hows it?? ok o not? |
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| ocmax | Feb 18 2006, 08:34 PM Post #24 |
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FOrUM ROoT-ADMiN
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I tested mine....just 2min on 3000rpm....is when UP not drop back.....to 3400rpm....... |
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| alam | Feb 18 2006, 10:15 PM Post #25 |
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alam
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Oh my God! Looks like UMWT is so dishonest just for the sake of their company. We customers are always at total lost. |
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